He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. And the same is true for Mary. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Even if the Pharisees had a canon that matched modern Protestantisms, his argument doesnt work, because it relies on a mistaken assumption about the Pharisees authority. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. Okay. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. So just a historical note for everybody watching. Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. Trent, did you want to-. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. So my point here is clear. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). Okay. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. Paul offers, he says in First Corinthians 7:5 through seven, Do not refuse one another, except by agreement for a season, to devote yourselves to prayer so that youre not tempted by lack of self control. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Then after being assumed into heaven, she would have a glorified body. First, when it comes to adelphos and adelphi, I think Steve would agree with me that, in general, what that word means in scripture is that you have the same biological mother and father. Thank you. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. That she was conceived without original sin? Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. Timothy Michael Law, who serves as the co-editor of the Oxford Handbook on the Septuagint, says the deuterocanonical books were included in the Septuagint and that it would also be mistaken to imagine that they have never been read as divine Scripture.. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. I run morning podcasts here on locals. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. Anything else you might disagree with? Well, in my own personal journey of faith, I think I had some difficulties with the immaculate conception of Mary and Marys bodily assumption, but I think I was able to move through those difficulties by broadening my understanding of what is the ultimate source of authority for Christians that its not Sola scriptura because the Bible itself doesnt even teach that. He had cancer and heart disease. . So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. Okay. If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. So this would be an argument saying that it is fitting, therefore it is true. What about the other Marian Dogmas? In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. So this next question is for you, Steve. Okay. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. This sure is fun, isnt it? Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. Both conditions were initially treatable, but he declined treatment. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. That would be one. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . Thanks. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. Id have to respond individually. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. 13K views, 25 likes, 6 loves, 7 comments, 12 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Lake Effect Furniture and Mattress: Have you seen the latest commercial yet? In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). Yes. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. 18. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. So I agree with that. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture.